can someone help with this noise ?

[Penatr8tor]

I hear ya on not wanting to rip things apart.

My primary rule when building printers is... everything needs to be as square as possible. Every joint needs to be checked and corrected if it isn't. It takes time and effort, you can't leave any stone unturned and if you do that when you build it... you will rarely have a problem. If you skip that step thinking it will be OK...

Well, then you will be taking it apart multiple times while making new friends on the internet trying to figure out what's causing strange noises. 

[PorcoMaster]

1 minute ago, Penatr8tor said:

I hear ya on not wanting to rip things apart.

My primary rule when building printers is... everything needs to be as square as possible. Every joint needs to be checked and corrected if it isn't. It takes time and effort, you can't leave any stone unturned and if you do that when you build it... you will rarely have a problem. If you skip that step thinking it will be OK...

Well, then you will be taking it apart multiple times while making new friends on the internet trying to figure out what's causing strange noises. 

yep, lesson learned, acquired some friends, and trying to cool down and print at least one test print before going down again...

as i said before i will build a printer from scratch soon enough, so i don't see as wasted time, just a learned lesson, i am just mad at myself as i had the piece in my hand and i could have checked it. before putting it back.

[PorcoMaster]

ok, just squared all brackets, and even the tower, thank you god, i didn't had to disassembly everything just a few screws, and the linear rod.

so let's see if the noise is truly gone

[PorcoMaster]

goddamit, the noise is not gone,

i change the rods twice, as the first one i bought a bit to small, i fixed any squaring issues, i change the Z rod screw, i tight the motor, i untight the Z rod screw i thought that was the problem from the beginning as it was too tight and did not have any play. the noise was gone but Z_banding was horrible, so i thought it might have being the nozzle pick another nozzle and now noise is back, i am sure it's not the nozzle, but the noise is back anyway.

at this point i am lost in what is my problem, the noise is not gone.

edit: just doing a print with a 0.25 nozzle, I don't have another 0.4 with me to test it out, and Z_banding is gone, the print is beautiful, but noise is not, WTF.

edit2: z banding is back

Edited October 1, 2024 by PorcoMaster

[nvanstaden]

have you tried to recreate it manually?

like disconnecting the gantry from the lead screw, manually moving that on the z axis (to check for rubbing/bad bearings in the wheels)

maybe putting some pressure on the nut an lead screw and manually turning it to feel/listen for strange noises grinding.

it only seems to happen when the z axis is moving. it has to be on the moving parts.

print up a wobble x and see if that makes a difference. if you need the stl, i got them. you will need some small bearings and pins though but i can imagine, a temporary one that the pins are printed or modified to have a groove instead would work just fine for testing. im suggesting this because you said the noise was gone when the nut was loose but you had horrible z banding. 

is your z stepper straight and in line?

[PorcoMaster]

16 minutes ago, nvanstaden said:

have you tried to recreate it manually?

like disconnecting the gantry from the lead screw, manually moving that on the z axis (to check for rubbing/bad bearings in the wheels)

maybe putting some pressure on the nut an lead screw and manually turning it to feel/listen for strange noises grinding.

it only seems to happen when the z axis is moving. it has to be on the moving parts.

print up a wobble x and see if that makes a difference. if you need the stl, i got them. you will need some small bearings and pins though but i can imagine, a temporary one that the pins are printed or modified to have a groove instead would work just fine for testing. im suggesting this because you said the noise was gone when the nut was loose but you had horrible z banding. 

is your z stepper straight and in line?

thanks for the help. the v_wheels are new but i will check, i might have skipped it.

is this the stl ?

https://www.printables.com/model/717230-wx-the-printable-wobble-x
 

the noise was not gone while with the nut was loose, it just toke an while to appear.

will disassembly the printer again and look for something else.

but i really appreciate your response.

[nvanstaden]

yes thats it but as i suggested, if you modify it to just have a groove you can use a ball bearing thats not that exact size just for testing because if you dont have the pins/bearing its gonna cost you some. a little daisy bb pellet would work too. i could whip up one if you are not able

[PorcoMaster]

21 hours ago, nvanstaden said:

yes thats it but as i suggested, if you modify it to just have a groove you can use a ball bearing thats not that exact size just for testing because if you dont have the pins/bearing its gonna cost you some. a little daisy bb pellet would work too. i could whip up one if you are not able

thank you for your help, i did found a little bit of stick at some parts on the v_wheels i just loose then a little bit, and it's better but the noise and z_banding is not gone, so i will print this ones https://www.printables.com/model/345127-eliminate-z-banding-oldham-coupler-for-most-printe/files
 

they are sure not as good as wooble X, and i do have BBs that i found yesterday, but i at least will know if it will solve somewhat, as it's just one hour to print all 6 parts, i will have something to look forward still today.

[nvanstaden]

yeah those work as well. just be sure that your print quality is high enough so they dont bind. good luck friend

[PorcoMaster]

20 hours ago, nvanstaden said:

yeah those work as well. just be sure that your print quality is high enough so they dont bind. good luck friend

the noise is gone, and the print improved by a bit, now i will disassembly once more and check the motors. as i didn't check before.

[nvanstaden]

happy time. so its definitely and alignment issue then. i have a severe dislike for lead screws. took a alfawise u20, that i found on the sidewalk, to belt z and now I'm converting it to switchwire style. if i can never deal with leadscrews again id be happy camper. pity my two prototype machines at work is impossible to convert otherwise they'd also receive this treatment. but i go the wobble x for those so i guess its not that bad.

[PorcoMaster]

1 hour ago, nvanstaden said:

happy time. so its definitely and alignment issue then. i have a severe dislike for lead screws. took a alfawise u20, that i found on the sidewalk, to belt z and now I'm converting it to switchwire style. if i can never deal with leadscrews again id be happy camper. pity my two prototype machines at work is impossible to convert otherwise they'd also receive this treatment. but i go the wobble x for those so i guess its not that bad.

annnnd the noise is back 0.o, but i didn't check the motors just yet, i am printing an oldham that i designed, didn't like that much the design i used, really good, but it could be improved. but as soon as it's printed i will check motors and install new design.

[PorcoMaster]

so.... i will update in here, as it looks like, i found the problem, wrong voltage on Vref on the boards i had put inside my machine.

this was the update i made a few months back




 

Added the raspberry into the electronics, added a bucket converter, don't even remember why, added connections to all boards and USB to outside, and added a new 4.2.7 ender 3 board, that i scored in a bin store for 12 dollars. as i wanted to have Z_tilt, so i put both Zs into the new board, thing is i just believed the Vref was ok, as ender 3 uses the same motor as cr-10s pro.

and formulas are the same as 4.2.9 uses TMC2225 and cr-10s pro v1, uses TMC2208, max vref should be about 1.16V, thing is, the new board was showing 1.105 and 1.098

and old board on same motors showed 1.26V maybe because the cr-10s pro is higher and needs to carry more weight, i just upped the voltage to the new board to 1.258V and 1.258V, and the noise is gone, for now at least, my theory is that the left side had more weight and the motor was not able to carry all that weight. that is also confirmed by the thermometer after making a small print, the right side motor was at 45C, and the left side was 55C.

either way, i kind redesigned completed the oldham as wanted to improve, and i already put it in the printer

this is the project if you are interested.

https://www.printables.com/model/1028457-oldham-generic-with-m3-inserts-z-banding

i really appreciate everyone that helped me, on this noise thing

Penatr8tor, nvanstaden, Glengus, RopusLongus,



Thank you very much.

Edited October 9, 2024 by PorcoMaster

[nvanstaden]

good for you buddy. wow thats a bit of an esoteric problem lol. kudos for catching that.

[Penatr8tor]

Nice! 

Now, onto the next challenge, whatever that may be. 

[RopusLongus]

Holy Shmoly......... ok didnt expect that ...
Lol i allwayf forget since i run a Mellow Fly Super8 Pro that you have to put on the Vref on the old Boards.
With RRF i just tell the driver in Config what Ampere i need and what drive it is the board reads out over spi

Glad to helb besides the Oldham i could use on my next Project

 

[PorcoMaster]

On 10/10/2024 at 3:10 AM, RopusLongus said:

Holy Shmoly......... ok didnt expect that ...
Lol i allwayf forget since i run a Mellow Fly Super8 Pro that you have to put on the Vref on the old Boards.
With RRF i just tell the driver in Config what Ampere i need and what drive it is the board reads out over spi

Glad to helb besides the Oldham i could use on my next Project

i mean, i already spend the time, so why not release it uauhauha, i hope you like it. anything just ask as i still have the original project, have a great day and thanks for all the help.

[PorcoMaster]

update: so those that might stumble upon this post in this future, the noise was back, but this time i think i nailed it final, i hope 0.o.

there was some difference between the motor and the rod nut, for some reason it was unaligned, i think when i fixed one of the plates it unaligned with the motor, i added *two washers between the screws and the profile, and it looks like it worked, running like that for a few weeks it made a dent into the rod, it's the third rod that i bought, and my printer does not go all the way up, so i just inverted the rod, and it looks like all the noise is gone, hopefully.

Note: * there are actually three washers in between profile and mount, one silver that came with the printer, and two black ones, that may not be fully visible, so 3 washers each screw. but your mileage might vary.

Edited November 6, 2024 by PorcoMaster

[PorcoMaster]

 

so, update: the noise came back 2 days later from my last post.

and just now i got back into it.

i needed to print so many things.

after careful analysis, i found that the hole of the system was kind off, i was deciding to just make a bigger hole, but decided to look further and see that the holes where i was putting the old ham, was kind off, and not matching the same system as the copper coupler, so i toke the measurements, and made a new part specifically for my printer, i think the holes were off in the factory, made some tests and it looks like the noise is gone, but i am still holding my breath that it will come back.

the system i made is fantastic, but the holes on the printer were definitely off. the noise was coming for sure from the bar eating away the copper coupler.

 

[PorcoMaster]

another update, noise is back i had to remake the old_ham from scratch to try to improve mobility.

and it did not solve, because i didn't understand the core problem. but it was a test to find the the core problem.

on the picture is possible to see marking of the lead-screw into the plastic. meaning it does not have enough "play" to move around.

i had to increase the holes in the so it had more play, but it was impossible to do so as the minimum wall between insert holes and middle hole was already at 0.45mm.

thing is, analyzing my 3d files, i come to the conclusion that the only hole that mattered was the one that was attached into the bracket, that was the one that the lead screw really had to "travel" around.

and like i said previously the holes on the downside or the bracket are farther away than the NUT holes. that means that i can do two different parts one for the NUT and one for the Bracket. i increased the hole as much as i could making it have the same wall size as the NUT, and was able to gain 1.6 mm of travel on all directions.

as the marks are not that deep, it might have solved it. or not

next problems i anticipate is that the lead screw might get into the bracket in itself. if that happens, there is three solutions bending it back as it was originally, not 90 degrees, increasing the hole in the bracket in itself or adding spacer into the wheels and getting it a few mm apart ( least desirable as i will need to disassembly almost the whole X and it's not guaranteed that it will work.

another problem is that the 1.6mm might not solve the problem on the plastic in itself. if that happens, i still have some other options, like using a smaller insert like m2 instead of m3, that would give me an extra 1 mm. another option is doing like the original and not really fixing the screws and putting spacer so the attachment in itself travels a bit, but that would give me less than 1 mm

i am documenting everything as it might help someone in the future. and again i am not holding my breath that it will solve at this time, the new old_ham is really designed for my printer only, so i prefer to not release it, as the other one should be a better option for any printer.

 

Edited April 1 by PorcoMaster